Nature and Belonging: Fostering Meaningful Youth Mentorship with CJ Greco

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Carrie Albright, NAAEE

Thanks for tuning in to The World We Want: The NAAEE Podcast. Today's episode was recorded in person at NAAEE’s 53rd Annual Conference in early November 2024.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

Welcome to the World We Want: The NAAEE Podcast. Hi. I'm your host, Gerry Ellis. If you've joined us before, you often have heard me start with what is the world you want? Something I hear more and more is folks saying, imagine a world where everyone has a space where they feel safe and can fulfill their passions. It's also a place where there's a sense of belonging.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

One of the core tenets of environmental education is connection. Connection to a place for my next guest. Environmental education offers both a place and a space to live their passion.

 

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CJ Greco

It's, I think, just like the mentors that I had who shaped those very formative experiences as a young queer teen who—I didn't even know I was queer at the time and—made me feel like this space was designed for me when it was really for everybody. You know, it's connecting to nature and all forms that it takes.

 

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CJ Greco

And I think anyone can find that safe space in nature if you know it's provided to them. But it was just so warm and accepting and kind and it's the types of spaces that I try to make with my students now where they know they're welcome.

 

00;01;48;08 - 00;02;09;06

Gerry Ellis, Host

For my next guest that journey to find a safe place has taken her on a sojourn around the world, before returning to her native Chicago and to the Lincoln Park Zoo. For the magic of nature as a child, first took root and blossomed from a geeky youth zoo volunteer, eagerly sharing everything she knew about animals with unsuspecting visitors.

 

00;02;09;09 - 00;02;46;06

Gerry Ellis, Host

To today, where C.J. is the zoo's respected teen programs manager. In 2024, C.J. was honored as an NAAEE EE 30 under 30 recipient for her passion for nature and her work, creating a space that nurtures conservation-minded teens and families across the city of Chicago. Before jumping into our conversation with C.J., if you're new to the podcast or to environmental education, you should know that The World We Want is a production of NAAEE, the North American Association for Environmental Education.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

Our goal is to shine a light on the environmental educators and their efforts from around the world. And now I'm delighted to welcome to the world we want C.J. Greco. Hi, and welcome to The World We Want.

 

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CJ Greco

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

You know, environmental education is the core of what we're talking about. So we're going to talk a lot about that. But what was your first memory of nature that it was special to you?

 

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CJ Greco

My first memory ever was I think I was 3 or 4 years old, and I remember going to zoo, the same zoo. I started my career at 11 and I watched the lamb being born. It was that's like the first core memory that I have and that I think, like, sparked everything, right? Like connection to the environment and animals has been my passion forever.

 

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CJ Greco

Like animals are my like special interest. You know, so zoos have been the place where I felt safe my whole life.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

So you say ‘safe.’ So where's it from a safe standpoint? Yeah. What was it like outside that zoo, then?

 

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CJ Greco

That's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in, like the suburbs of Chicago, in Illinois, and, you know, it's definitely varied. You know, I had a lot of family. I'm the second generation Italian. So big family, in the Chicago suburbs. And, you know, we everyone had all sorts of different interests. And I was always the only one in my family.

 

00;04;16;28 - 00;04;28;24

CJ Greco

It was like, well, let's go to the zoo. Let's go on a walk in the forest. Let's—I was always the animal person. Like, that was always my thing. Like, if you ask my cousins today, that's how they describe me. It's like, oh yeah, CJ works at the zoo.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

How did watching a lamb being born to working at this place that you love? Yeah. How did that happen?

 

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CJ Greco

So, like I mentioned very briefly, when I was 11 years old, I started volunteering at Cosley Zoo, that same zoo where I had that memory. In their junior zookeeper program, a program that's still going. Still on running. Once I entered high school, I started, as a member of the Youth Volunteer Corps at what is now called Brookfield Chicago.

 

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CJ Greco

And, in that program, I met friends who I'm still, you know, friends with today and made connections that I never really thought that I could make, like it was in these formative experiences of being in zoo programs as a teen that made me want to make those same experiences possible for more people. So in college, I worked as a seasonal educator at both those zoos.

 

00;05;17;03 - 00;05;43;18

CJ Greco

I interned at Cosley Zoo. I worked as a seasonal for maybe ten years at Brookfield. I was there for a very long time. And when the pandemic hit, I was—seasonal educators were the first to be let go from a lot of places. Brookfield Zoo included. And so I went and I started working, in a nonprofit doing college and career access for teens in high schools.

 

00;05;43;20 - 00;06;09;02

CJ Greco

So I was, you know, helping tutor English or social studies and, yeah. And the pandemic forced me to reevaluate what I really loved. And it was connecting people to the environment. And after about two years of working at, this high school doing career in college access, I found myself at Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago.

 

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CJ Greco

And I've been there ever since. About two and a half years, I've been at Lincoln Park Zoo now.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

You said something just a second ago. You said connections you didn't think you would ever make. What were those?

 

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CJ Greco

I think just like the mentors that I had who, like, shaped those very formative experiences as a young queer teen who I didn't even know I was queer at the time and made me feel like this space was designed for me when it was really for everybody, but it was just so warm and accepting. It's the types of spaces that I try to make with my students now where they know they're welcome.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

I think that's one of the things that we've heard from other guests on the podcast. Is this sense of welcome. Of being embraced.

 

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CJ Greco

Yeah, absolutely. It's a big deal.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

And nature can do that, make the space that safe. I mean, you obviously you're working with youth, you're working with other people. What do you think makes it safe?

 

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CJ Greco

Yeah, I know I mentioned my title. I'm the teen programs manager at Lincoln Park Zoo. And so my job is I actively create and help find funding for and coordinate program, development and curriculum for all of the teen programs at Park Zoo. So we have a couple of programs. One is focused on interpretation out in the park, just talking, like having teens talk to guests about animals, which is what I was doing when I was 11 and 12 and 13 and through high school.

 

00;07;37;23 - 00;07;56;10

CJ Greco

There's another program that I really love, which where teens are doing research with some of our zoo scientists. I also I interned in college at Brookfield Zoo doing research with their primates. So it's something that I like. Research is a big part of my life in a very adjacent way. That was never something I studied, but it's always something I'm interested in.

 

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CJ Greco

So I get to help students experience that as well. And then advocacy is a really, another part of that as well. Or at advocacy and experiences, having students experience nature in a really like raw and beautiful way, whether that's at the zoo with our lions or polar bears or gorillas, or just like at Nature Boardwalk, which is a four-acre restored natural area just south of the zoo, where we have native prairie plants and birds and beavers and ducks.

 

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CJ Greco

It’s connecting to nature and all forms that it takes. And I think anyone can find that safe space in nature if it's provided to them.

 

00;08;35;17 - 00;08;51;04

Gerry Ellis, Host

When you mentioned you were, you know, these connections, you're 11 or 12. Were you talking to 11 or 12 year olds? Are you talking to adults? (CJ:  Yeah, I think both.) So what happens when a when an adult there's this 11 or 12 year old telling them all this stuff about things that they may not even know?

 

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CJ Greco

It's really. Yeah, I remember being a teen and talking to, like, adults about like, oh yeah, I was in front of maybe like the tiger exhibit at Brookfield Zoo. And he would be like, how do you know all this? Right? I feel like you're like a paid interpreter. I was like, no, I'm a 13-year-old volunteer. Or like, you're just like, I was literally just a kid, but, like, experienced.

 

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CJ Greco

I mean, it's the same thing with a lot of volunteer programs, right? Like docents and museums and zoos and all their institutions. Volunteers are the backbone of a lot of institutions. But it's also like not super accessible to volunteer if you are, you know, maybe like a low income family or you don't have a place where you feel safe volunteering.

 

00;09;29;17 - 00;09;42;23

CJ Greco

So, I mean, I was definitely very fortunate that I had those spaces and they were provided to me. But like the programs that I have provide for teens now, we pay our teens, which is a huge win. I don't know many other organizations. I get to say that they pay their teens for their work.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

Do you think paying them changes the kind of teens you get, or is that like a bonus?

 

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CJ Greco

I think it's more like a bonus. Some of the teens I—again I can talk in depth about a lot of them, because I've been writing so many like college recommendation letters for them right now—but it's been really exciting to see, like, their passions grow and shift with their development in the program.

 

00;10;06;28 - 00;10;27;28

CJ Greco

They might enter the program thinking “I kind of really I like research, but I don't really know if that's like my jam.” And then I'm writing this college like recommendation letter for them to go study ecology like that fully was their thing is they're going to go do ecological research or like, “yeah, I'm really into like, you know, connecting people about nature” and now you're going go study zoological sciences.

 

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CJ Greco

That's amazing to me.

 

00;10;29;06 - 00;10;32;19

Gerry Ellis, Host

And I'm watching your face light up. 

 

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CJ Greco

It's like a proud parent, I love it. It brings me so much joy.

 

00;10;33;26 - 00;10;45;10

Gerry Ellis, Host

We talk about environmental education is almost like a siloed thing. It's what we go do. And I think what you're talking about is something that is something different.

 

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CJ Greco

Yeah, I think there's something really special about like and I say this having had this is having a trusted adult as a team, like someone who's not your parents, someone who's not a family member, but like an adult who you can place trust and confidence in to support whatever endeavors you choose. Like those mentors that I had when I was a teen made me love this, and I get to provide that same thing to other people.

 

00;11;12;02 - 00;11;25;07

CJ Greco

I've been the person again, being an open out queer person. I've had teens like who feel comfortable, like they haven't come out to their families yet. They'll come out to me. It's really special to be that person who these kids trust, like, wholly.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

So it's a whole different safe space.

 

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CJ Greco

It's a safe space for a lot of reasons. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

Wow. That's really interesting. Do you remember your first mentor?

 

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CJ Greco

Oh, that's a really good question. I feel like the two people who really stand out to me, they're from two different organizations. Neither work at these organizations anymore. Because the time has passed. I've been doing this for 17 years. When I was 11, the person who like, hired and interviewed me for that junior zookeeper position at Cosley Zoo.

 

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CJ Greco

Her name is Natasha Fisher. She now works for a different organization, doing different things. But when I went back to Cosley Zoo as an intern in college. She was still there. We still connect now. And it's been really, fun and interesting to see how she's watched me grow and develop. I'm literally a different person than who she knew at 11.

 

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CJ Greco

So it's a fun relationship. And then the other person, her name is Deborah Cutzka. She was the person who was in charge of the Youth Volunteer Corps program at Brookfield Zoo, Chicago quite a while ago. And a lot of what she's established when I was a teen, that youth volunteer for a program was so fundamental in me being who I am today.

 

00;12;43;17 - 00;13;09;09

CJ Greco

Her mentorship, I think, shaped the path that I'm on. Why I think I love working in teen programs as an adult because like getting to see that spark, the spark that I know that I had as a teen that she got to watch, I get to watch it in others. And it makes it makes me feel so joyful. I don't know, I feel like that's the word of the day for C.J.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

It's really hard to describe to people who haven't had that experience, but when you see that spark in someone else over something that you have passion for, especially, and that you have had played some even small role in triggering that, that is a really magical moment.

 

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CJ Greco

100%. I mean, again, I was afforded those opportunities because like I said, my family not into any of this stuff. We would take family vacations and my mom would like, recognize like, oh, C.J wants to go to the zoo, so we'll go to the beach if you want to, like, rent—you're like 12. You can go to the zoo by yourself and we'll come back like, you know what I mean?

 

00;13;44;21 - 00;14;01;22

CJ Greco

We had these, like, that was my thing. Everyone knew that was my thing. And it was encouraged. Like, I had a family that encouraged me to do what I loved. And I had mentors in these informal spaces, these trusted adults, continue to push my passion. And I think that is like what made me, me, you know.

 

00;14;01;24 - 00;14;15;15

Gerry Ellis, Host

You know, a minute ago when you said you were 11 years old, you went in for this interview. I'm just trying to picture that moment. That just seems hilarious to me. I just I just see you as a proper little kid sitting in there, like, I hope I get this job, I hope I get this job. 

 

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CJ Greco

I hope it's exactly that. It's exactly that. Yeah. Because I interview teens now. Yeah. Except I get — It's a different thing because like they’re paid, they're not volunteering, but it's the same energy of like this is their first experience too, that like when my current role is, teen programs manager at Lincoln Park Zoo, we essentially talk about our interview and recruitment process as a program on its own, separate from our interpretation program or our research program.

 

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CJ Greco

This program is the interview where teaching kids how to do an interview, we give them some of the questions ahead of time. We teach them like what it takes to, you know, talk to how to how to structure your answer for responses.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

That's brilliant though. Because I mean, that's a life lesson.

 

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CJ Greco

Yeah. I mean, we have 22 spots and last summer we got almost 300 applications. Even if they don't get the job they want, they're getting skills that are valuable. Lincoln Park Zoo and C.J. and my whole team are getting to still play a part in those young people's lives, even if they aren't a part of our programs, which is huge.

 

00;15;24;08 - 00;15;35;24

Gerry Ellis, Host

So as this as your journey, this journey continued. Was there a point in there where you, you kind of came to this realization that this is what I was going to do the rest of my life?

 

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CJ Greco

This is the goal. This is the dream. I hadn't planned past this because I'm already at the dream job. Getting to be team programs manager at Lincoln Park was like, this is it. So I'm like so—this is a euphoric experience. To get to talk about my job and my experience because I, it's just the best.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

So earlier you mentioned your career. Has that created any barriers to who you are and what you are doing now?

 

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CJ Greco

Yeah.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

I mean when was the first time that it created a barrier?

 

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CJ Greco

It's an interesting question and a complicated one because I feel like when it's created barriers, I haven't necessarily looked at it that way. Again, in recent times, it's been looking at it through the lens of safety and how do I keep myself protected or safe? So even if that was an opportunity that I actually can't take, but I feel like it's an opportunity for me to like, share those—

 

00;16;36;28 - 00;16;57;11

CJ Greco

It’s an opportunity for me to share those opportunities that I can't take with others to then make the difference that I literally can't. Accolades is not something I've ever strived for. My biggest thing that I want out of life is to be a “thank you” in someone else's acceptance speech. You know, that's huge for me.

 

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CJ Greco

So, you know, I've been in talks with people to like, oh, maybe like go do some education programs in Africa. I can't go to Africa. I'm a trans person. Or go do some study abroad programs in Southeast Asia. I can't go to Southeast Asia. I'm a trans person. I mean, like even places that I've been.

 

00;17;16;00 - 00;17;35;14

CJ Greco

So while I was in college, I was really fortunate. I had the opportunity to spend, about two and a half months backpacking in Australia. I took my summer in between my final semester, and I backpacked in Australia for two and a half months by myself, and it was the scariest thing I've ever done. But I wasn't like out as queer yet.

 

00;17;35;14 - 00;18;00;27

CJ Greco

I was just sort of like seeing who I was. I was figuring myself out and it was also the time when, like, really bad things happened to me. Like I was a victim of a hate crime when I was in Australia. That is a real story. That happened to me and it like confirmed that the world is not a safe and welcoming place and I need to make those safe and welcoming places for everyone else, because the world is not going to make.

 

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Gerry Ellis, Host

That's really interesting that you feel compelled to make those safe and more welcoming places for others. Yeah. How do you do that?

 

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CJ Greco

I think it's just like open heart, open mind. Like I might not understand everything and I don't have to, but I'm going to show care and compassion regardless. Yeah, I don't have to understand their experiences to show compassion.

 

00;18;24;20 - 00;18;39;14

Gerry Ellis, Host

We're going to take a quick break in my conversation with C.J. And when we come back, we're going to talk about CJ's own podcast, something I only discovered just before we started recording today. First, let's check in with our own podcast producer. Hi, Carrie.

 

00;18;39;16 - 00;19;15;04

Carrie Albright, NAAEE

Well, I'm just blown away by CJ's journey, and I love thinking about that little kiddo from the beginning of the story and how amazed they would be at who CJ's become. Hey everyone, I'm Carrie Albright from NAAEE. So thanks for joining us for this episode. You know, part of our goal of this podcast is getting stories from people like C.J out into the world, and we’d really, really love for you to help us reach more listeners, just like you, who benefit from listening to all the forms that environmental education takes with some of the amazing guests that we've had on this podcast.

 

00;19;15;04 - 00;19;40;19

Carrie Albright, NAAEE

Please share this episode with the people in your life who might need a little bit of that humor, that hope, that inspiration that we're getting from C.J. and all our incredible guests. So we'd love it if you would take a moment to rate, review, subscribe to the podcast, wherever it is you're listening. It really, really helps. But C.J., I cannot wait to hear more about you, about your work, about your podcast.

 

00;19;40;19 - 00;19;42;10

Carrie Albright, NAAEE

So take it away.

 

00;19;42;13 - 00;19;45;20

Gerry Ellis, Host

Thanks, Carrie. So, C.J., your podcast is called—

 

00;19;45;22 - 00;20;09;06

CJ Greco

It's called the Birdy Bunch podcast. So The Birdy Bunch podcast sort of focuses on like three main pillars of conservation, education, and fascination. When I first started this podcast with some friends of mine, we had started it because we were informal environmental educators who couldn't educate about the environment. It was our passion. It was our dream. But the world was closed.

 

00;20;09;12 - 00;20;32;00

CJ Greco

We had lost our seasonal positions as educators. We're sort of like wrapping up university or we were moving on to like graduate programs or kind of moving on at different parts of our career, but still wanted to hold on to this joy that we got from talking about conservation and the animals and wildlife. And The Birdy Bunch podcast gave us an opportunity to do that.

 

00;20;32;02 - 00;21;02;16

CJ Greco

So, you know, since June 2020, The Birdy Bunch podcast has had, you know, over 115 episodes, almost 15,000 downloads, like it's been a really fun and interesting time to meet new people and connect. And like some of my friends who I've traveled with, like I took a trip earlier this year to Tucson, Arizona to do some birding with friends who I made through The Birdy Bunch podcast. 

 

00;21;02;16 - 00;21;27;24

CJ Greco

I think it allowed us to connect with people in the pandemic, when it felt impossible to connect with people like it was. Again, I think sort of the energy of this week for me has been like the world's a lot right now, but this is a nice place to connect. And that's sort of how I felt when starting The Birdy Bunch podcast is the world's a lot right now, but this is an opportunity to connect.

 

00;21;27;27 - 00;21;31;04

Gerry Ellis, Host

So in that podcast, where do the conversations go?

 

00;21;31;07 - 00;21;53;10

CJ Greco

I mean, so are our episodes really focused on like topics. So, you know, we did topics on stand out conservationists. We did topics on like, cryptids and other things that were kind of silly. But then we also talked about things like queer ecology. That's like a niche interest of mine. 

 

00;21;53;10 - 00;21;55;03

CJ Greco

Yeah. I can explain.

 

00;21;55;03 - 00;21;56;08

Gerry Ellis, Host

Queer ecology? I have no clue.

 

00;21;56;08 - 00;22;16;07

CJ Greco

What you're 100%. Yeah. Let me tell you more. Okay, so essentially, queer ecology is like looking at the natural world through a like non like stereotypical lens. So normally when we think about animals or wildlife, we look at it through the lens of like white cis men. No offense.

 

00;22;16;09 - 00;22;17;03

Gerry Ellis, Host

None taken.

 

00;22;17;06 - 00;22;41;18

CJ Greco

But queer ecology sort of like lets us look at the natural world in like a non-binary lens. So essentially like thinking about like bees, for example, bees are a really good example of queer ecology because they don't necessarily fit into our two boxes of like, boys and girl bees. Like there's really like 3 or 4 different sexes of bees, because there's the worker bees who fill a different role in the bee society.

 

00;22;41;18 - 00;23;06;16

CJ Greco

There's the protector bees or the drone bees, there's the queen bee. There's all the like the little male mate bees. And they all fill different roles and they don't really like swap between roles. They sort of stay in their station unless they're like, you know, the queen disappears or something. But we like think about it as like, oh, there's male bees and there's female bees, but there's really way more than that.

 

00;23;06;19 - 00;23;32;06

CJ Greco

Then on the other end, things like the whiptail lizard, fully a female species. They reproduce through parthenogenesis, which means like they can reproduce asexually. But the whiptail lizard still needs like as a species, as an individual, it's still like wants to do the behavior of sex. So the whole female species breeds with each other. And that triggers the parthenogenesis.

 

00;23;33;09 - 00;23;50;05

CJ Greco

Like, they don't need like, it's not looking at it through the same lens as, like, well, this is the boy lion. And the girl lion, and they make the baby lions. It's a very different lens to look at things since like coral. What is coral? I don't know, because it doesn't fit in our boxes.

 

00;23;50;07 - 00;24;15;03

CJ Greco

There's a book. I believe it's, I don't have the exact title, but it's called Biological Exuberance, which I think is a great title. And it talks about, I think it's like 2000 different examples of gender diverse or like sexuality, diverse examples in wildlife, whether that's plants or animals. Fascinating book. So do an episode of Queer Ecology, come back.

 

00;24;15;06 - 00;24;19;05

Gerry Ellis, Host

Yeah. You know no, this is that would be that would be awesome to do.

 

00;24;19;06 - 00;24;30;02

CJ Greco

And I think queer ecology is essentially just like the thought process of looking at it outside of our standard boxes. That's all it is. It's more just like a thought experiment and like looking at nature in a new perspective.

 

00;24;30;09 - 00;24;35;18

Gerry Ellis, Host

How do you bring some of that? Do you bring some of that to the youth programs that you're doing?

 

00;24;35;21 - 00;24;56;27

CJ Greco

I think I try to I think queer ecology, it's maybe not the most accepted in terms in, like the scientific community as a whole. I feel like science really likes its boxes, and queer ecology tries to deconstruct the boxes. So science doesn't love it. But again, my background is in informal education. I'm down to break down the boxes.

 

00;24;57;00 - 00;25;19;25

CJ Greco

And I think it sort of like breaking down those big scientific terms. Right? When I was interviewing for a new staff member recently, we asked, how would you explain this, like, complex idea to a ten year old? And one of the words that we gave them as examples like biodiversity. And so just like that was an interview question that I asked because I was like, if you can explain this complex idea in a very simple way, you and I are on the same level.

 

00;25;19;25 - 00;25;44;03

CJ Greco

That is how I think, I need you to think like me. And it was a really good connection for me to sort of understand how people take complex topics and break them down. You know, what is important about these big things. And I think that is more the lesson that I take from queer ecology to bring to my teen programs, as opposed to like queer ecology itself, like taking these big concepts,

 

00;25;44;06 - 00;25;45;16

CJ Greco

Breaking them down from a new perspective.

 

00;25;45;20 - 00;26;01;24

Gerry Ellis, Host

How to talk to me a little bit about how, first, the people that you work with in the institution you work with, how you've married into that, and then more broadly, the public.

 

00;26;01;29 - 00;26;26;14

CJ Greco

For sure. I mean, like just start institutionally first. Lincoln Park Zoo and I feel so proud that I get to say it's the best place it ever worked. It's the most accepted I've ever felt. Things still aren't at 100%. And it's okay to not be 100%. The world's not 100% less than that, for sure. But it's the closest I've ever felt to being 100% safe, at work at least.

 

00;26;26;16 - 00;26;42;27

CJ Greco

And I like I said, I love the people I work with, love the organization I work for. So has a lot of growing to do. And that's okay. Everyone has growing to do. I mentioned this, a little bit earlier today, but being trans today is an act of resistance because it goes against the norm.

 

00;26;42;27 - 00;27;08;23

CJ Greco

It goes against the grain. And people don't like that. Same thing with queer ecology, right? It's okay that it goes against the norm, but it can be really scary to be a person living that, and, you know, it's something that I feel really excited that I get to do. Again, I would rather be the person who gets some of that hate from the world than like, one of the teens that I work with because I can handle it.

 

00;27;08;23 - 00;27;13;10

CJ Greco

I am an adult, I have benefits, and I can go to therapy and I can talk it all out.

 

00;27;13;12 - 00;27;15;10

Gerry Ellis, Host

But there must have been a time when you couldn't.

 

00;27;15;12 - 00;27;16;22

CJ Greco

Oh for sure.

 

00;27;16;24 - 00;27;17;29

Gerry Ellis, Host

And what was that like?

 

00;27;18;01 - 00;27;46;16

CJ Greco

I mean, it was hard. It was really hard. Yeah, for sure. And I think having so much support, support that I know a lot of queer and trans people don't get, I've had that support and I've been so unbelievably fortunate to have that. Like, I have trans friends who straight up don't talk to their family members anymore. I could talk to my sister every single day. It's beautiful to have support from your friends and family.

 

00;27;46;18 - 00;28;04;20

CJ Greco

And that's why a lot of the queer community, I think, leans into this like “found family,” where we are each other's family. We support each other in that same intimate way because it's something that as human beings, we need that. That connection is what empowers us and emboldens us to move on to tomorrow.

 

00;28;04;22 - 00;28;08;19

Gerry Ellis, Host

I think about teens. Teens are going through so much.

 

00;28;08;19 - 00;28;10;26

CJ Greco

It's a very transitional time.

 

00;28;10;28 - 00;28;22;05

Gerry Ellis, Host

Yeah. I would think when you see a young person going through those things, you feel what they go through. In a different way than I might, you know?

 

00;28;22;06 - 00;28;40;00

CJ Greco

Sure. And, you know, I think, I think part of it is just like lived experience. Right? We're talking about it earlier. We can only we can talk to our lived experiences. But also you don't have to show empathy for things that you don't know, right? You can do. I mean, you can show empathy for things that you don't understand.

 

00;28;40;00 - 00;29;05;09

CJ Greco

That's okay, because not everyone's experience is the same. And I think for me, again no one's experience is going to mirror mine. No one's. And my experience can't mirror anyone else's. And that's true for the world, not just for the queer and trans community. In the trans community, something that's said quite a lot is there's no transition that looks the same, everyone's transition looks different.

 

00;29;05;11 - 00;29;25;09

CJ Greco

And I think that's just true for the world. Everyone's path is different, even if they're in the exact same career, the same job at different institutions, the same job at the same institution, their experiences, their background, that's what makes them who they are. It's not just the one path that we all take, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's also a scary thing.

 

00;29;25;09 - 00;29;48;21

CJ Greco

It can feel really isolating, especially for a young kid. Whether you're queer or not. But to have, like I mentioned, that trusted adult to believe in you and support you when like I hold no stake in anything that teen does, I can only show kindness. That's it. You know I can't give them money. I mean, unless they're, you know, working for me.

 

00;29;48;21 - 00;30;13;20

CJ Greco

But that's not the same thing as, like, you know, being like a financial, you know, support of this kid. I can't give them health care. I can't give them time outside of my work hours. But what I can do is while they're here, while they're with me, I can show them as much support as I would show anyone else. As much support as I would want, because that's going to help them grow and be confident, and eventually they're not going to need my support.

 

00;30;13;20 - 00;30;33;13

CJ Greco

They're going to be confident in themselves. And like, that's what I had. You know, I went through so many years of and I think still I get this imposter syndrome of not being good enough. I think that's very common in a lot of, especially young educators, where there's so much history to the world. How can you hold anything?

 

00;30;33;16 - 00;30;47;07

CJ Greco

But our experiences are valuable and they're experience are valuable. Teens are in this time where they're growing and learning and developing, and you just got to help them, like nudge them in the right direction.

 

00;30;47;09 - 00;31;09;21

Gerry Ellis, Host

I think one of the beautiful things about being outdoors and engaged with nature is we don't see those boxes as much. We interact and encounter nature as feelings without as many boundaries around those feelings. How do you use that when you're working with the kids that you're working with?

 

00;31;09;21 - 00;31;39;04

CJ Greco

I mean, like, nature can be, nature has the potential to be such a safe and welcoming space. It has the space, it has the capacity to be like the world's biggest classroom. Right? There's so much to learn, so much to do, so much to see, endless. Forever. But also it has the capacity to be terrifying. It can be so scary.

 

00;31;39;07 - 00;32;01;14

CJ Greco

You can be, hypothetically, 21 years old, backpacking for two and a half months in Australia and get attacked being alone in the forest. Hypothetically for sure. No, that. No, that did happen to me for sure. I shouldn't say hypothetically without the of the accused of not my voice. But, you know, like, it's scary and it's real.

 

00;32;03;04 - 00;32;09;29

Gerry Ellis, Host

I'm getting, you know, cut you off there. Why did you choose Australia?

 

00;32;10;01 - 00;32;33;06

CJ Greco

Yeah. Australia has always been the place that I wanted to go. And it was Steve Irwin, Steve Irwin. And that was like, oh, my God, a kid could do, a person could do that. That's amazing. You know, I think that's like, you know, people like Steve Irwin, like Jane Goodall, like these, these personalities of conservation made it, like it made it an exciting thing to do.

 

00;32;33;06 - 00;32;51;07

CJ Greco

I think people who maybe like animals weren't their thing still knew Steve Irwin or Jane Goodall like, those are like, not even just like, you know, individuals, but personalities of the conservation movement. And so Steve Irwin was someone who I was very inspired by.

 

00;32;51;09 - 00;32;52;10

Gerry Ellis, Host

So Australia.

 

00;32;52;13 - 00;33;11;27

CJ Greco

I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. I went to college in the city of Chicago, and now living in the city of Chicago and work in the city of Chicago. This has been where I've lived forever. This has been who I am forever. So when I was figuring out who I was, I wanted to be in a place when no one know who I was.

 

00;33;12;00 - 00;33;36;18

CJ Greco

And so I was like, I'm going to go spend two months by myself and figure it out. And I came back and within a month and a half I'd come out. I figured it out. It was scary. It was terrifying. It was like, there were terrible things that happened, but it was also like beautiful and warm and kind in the exact opposite ways.

 

00;33;36;21 - 00;34;06;10

CJ Greco

And I think that is like, you know, just because one bad experience happens, you can't cut everything off. But figuring out who I was, it was really vital. And well, what is my place in this world right now? The world is only getting worse for queer and trans people right now. And how can I provide those spaces where even if the world or their country is not supporting them, they're getting the support they need to be themselves?

 

00;34;06;13 - 00;34;16;03

Gerry Ellis, Host

How did you come out of Australia with the confidence to come out, and how do you share that confidence with teens?

 

00;34;16;04 - 00;34;34;25

CJ Greco

Yeah, I remember when I was in Australia, I flew in and out of Melbourne. And Melbourne, big coffee city, I would go into a different coffee shop every day and give them a different name. Just trying on new names. It wasn't always it's easy now and I love being C.J. but I would go and I would try out new names.

 

00;34;34;25 - 00;34;58;23

CJ Greco

Who am I today? Because they don't know who I am. I'll never go back. I’d go and I could figure it out. There was no judgment. And even if there was, I'd never see them again. That's fine. It's just it's all about storytelling. And what stories do we tell as individuals, as educators, as queer people, as conservationists?

 

00;34;58;25 - 00;35;02;23

Gerry Ellis, Host

Like was there was there some kind of tipping point moment?

 

00;35;02;28 - 00;35;31;06

CJ Greco

I don't know if there was a tipping point moment, but I think the tip, I guess, I guess there was. I I can't narrow down specifically, I guess, what I'm trying to say, but I think knowing to feel as joyful as I did in those months alone without judgment, I would have to, I would have to be myself. To feel that like freedom from judgment

 

00;35;31;08 - 00;35;56;15

CJ Greco

I would have to accept it. And like judgment is fine. I get judged every day of my life. We all do. Whether you're trans or not. You get judged. But it's scary if it's new. And so doing it is the answer. If you're thinking about it, maybe think a little bit harder. And then once you think about it harder and then harder, and then as hard as you can possibly think about it, that's all—

 

00;35;56;17 - 00;36;14;25

CJ Greco

What is that going to solve? It isn’t going to solve anything. So you must take action. And so if I'm going to feel joy, I needed to be me. And I love being me. So maybe this is like colloquial, like brain rot internet slang, I don't know. But the term that the trans community likes to use is like, when did the egg crack?

 

00;36;15;02 - 00;36;43;28

CJ Greco

Because like once the egg cracks, you can't put it back together. You can't not come out. I think that I've known something was different about me forever, like about my gender, but it never really, like came up in ways that I thought were important. It always was important. But like, I remember being in middle school, I went to a Catholic school and boys and girls had different dress codes, and I hated the dress code that I had to follow.

 

00;36;44;01 - 00;37;02;00

CJ Greco

It was the worst thing that I ever had to do. Why? So silly. Of course I know why now. Or I remember being in high school or I think it was the same middle school and they had like how short you had to have your hair. And I was like, no, I'm going to grow out my hair, I think.

 

00;37;02;02 - 00;37;18;08

CJ Greco

And there was I was like, no, no, no, I'm, it's for an acting thing. I'm in the school drama club. I need to grow it out. I had to like and that was just I had to find an excuse to do the things that were, like, affirming to what I didn't even know was my gender. It was just like, that

 

00;37;18;08 - 00;37;31;23

CJ Greco

That's what feels good. That's what I want to do. And it's always been finding excuses to do this. But why should I make an excuse for being myself, right? I should just be myself. It's the best.

 

00;37;31;25 - 00;37;40;26

Gerry Ellis, Host

You leave Australia and you're coming out. So there must have been a moment in Australia where you saw yourself and you went, I like that.

 

00;37;40;28 - 00;37;56;21

CJ Greco

I think the moment and again it's more of a more of a series of moments, I suppose. But, I spent my 22nd birthday in Australia alone by myself. I was in Sydney. I was, like I said, backpacking all around the country. It went literally everywhere. I was in the desert, I was in the rainforest and in the reef.

 

00;37;56;21 - 00;38;16;28

CJ Greco

I was everywhere. And I was in Sydney from my 22nd birthday. And again, zoos are my special interest. I went to the zoo during the day, Taronga Zoo, beautiful zoo. And then the evening I went to a steakhouse, got a nice dinner, and then I went to a comedy show at the Sydney Opera House. And that was my 22nd birthday by myself.

 

00;38;17;00 - 00;38;32;19

CJ Greco

And I think just like, oh, no one can like say, oh, I don't want to do that for your birthday, actually, or, I don't know if that's fun. I got to decide what I wanted to do for me. You know what I mean?

 

00;38;32;21 - 00;38;33;06

Gerry Ellis, Host

Yeah.

 

00;38;33;08 - 00;38;56;23

CJ Greco

And I think it's easy if maybe you've been doing that forever. But being a queer kid and you're told no, this is the box you're supposed to go in. Stay in your box. I got to decide what my box looked like, because even if I was being judged, nobody knew me. And it didn't matter. Nature innately doesn't judge you.

 

00;38;56;25 - 00;39;18;27

CJ Greco

It's people entering that space that do it, right. Like a squirrel isn't going to, like, question your sexuality, or like a bird of Paradise isn't gonna look at you for being dressed strangely. So like it matters to no one except the people who judge you. And once you accept that like you are who you are, if they're going to judge you, they're going to judge you.

 

00;39;19;00 - 00;39;21;02

CJ Greco

It's okay to be you.

 

00;39;21;04 - 00;39;30;09

Gerry Ellis, Host

I think we should let everybody know. In case you don't know what a bird of Paradise looks like, look it up. And they do judge you, because there's no way any of us can look as good as they do.

 

00;39;30;09 - 00;39;32;16

CJ Greco

You know what, that is the one caveat. I guess.

 

00;39;32;19 - 00;39;36;17

Gerry Ellis, Host

That's true. They have us. There's no way.

 

00;39;36;18 - 00;39;44;20

CJ Greco

Maybe it's my confidence. Maybe it's confidence. I could look as good one day. Not today for sure, but one day.

 

00;39;44;23 - 00;39;49;11

Gerry Ellis, Host

No, I don't think I ever have one of those days.

 

00;39;49;13 - 00;40;04;17

Gerry Ellis, Host

With that confidence, how do you share that moment of confidence with your, with these teens that you work with? How do you do you share that you tell a story or but or how do you just—

 

00;40;04;20 - 00;40;05;11

CJ Greco

Yeah.

 

00;40;05;11 - 00;40;07;07

Gerry Ellis, Host

Take that and move that within their skin.

 

00;40;07;07 - 00;40;27;12

CJ Greco

Yeah. I mean a lot of what I do, I feel like I feel like my story is not always hyper relevant to, especially the teens that I work with. It is relevant because I literally I've lived a lot of the same things. I was in zoo programs. I'm teaching zoo programs like it is for sure relevant, but like our stories are going inevitably to be different.

 

00;40;27;14 - 00;41;05;08

CJ Greco

So like whether they know what I've lived through, maybe that's great. Maybe that's really helpful in shaping them. But my role is to just be me and me being me, support them. And now as teen programs manager, I'm not only supporting the teens, but I'm supporting all of my staff. I have a full team of people who are amazing educators, who are just brilliant people working to support hundreds of teens over the course of time, and I get to lead that team as me.

 

00;41;05;11 - 00;41;08;03

CJ Greco

It's so wonderful.

 

00;41;08;05 - 00;41;15;12

Gerry Ellis, Host

Being outside for a lot of people that especially teens from inner city, can be a scary place as well.

 

00;41;15;12 - 00;41;16;15

CJ Greco

100%.

 

00;41;16;18 - 00;41;33;23

Gerry Ellis, Host

And trying to gain confidence to do that is—at that age, you're trying to find confidence in so many places in your life. I mean, you're trying to figure out who you are. You're trying to figure out who the world thinks you are. You're trying to figure out, you know, will I matter in the future? 

 

00;41;33;23 - 00;41; 34;23

CJ Greco

Yeah. It's terrifying.

 

00;41; 34;24- 00;41;38;18

Gerry Ellis, Host

And now you are done taking them outside to terrify them in a whole nother way.

 

00;41;38;23 - 00;41;55;04

CJ Greco

So part of my role as team programs manager, you know, we're doing all sorts of experiential learning where kids are getting their hands on in nature, doing things, whether they're talking to guests with biomaterials, with like skulls of animals or pelts or whatever, or they're doing research in the field with some of our scientists at the zoo.

 

00;41;55;07 - 00;42;16;13

CJ Greco

That's a lot of the work that I'm doing for the day job. But out of work, I'm on the leadership team for a community organization called Out in Nature. Out in Nature is a community organization, kind of made by and for the LGBTQIA+ community. We it's been ongoing since 2019, so since before the pandemic. And so it has made its way through.

 

00;42;16;15 - 00;42;49;16

CJ Greco

And essentially we organize events in the Chicagoland area from southern Wisconsin through northwestern Indiana, kind of that entire region, helping the queer community connect to each other in safe spaces in the environment. Because you're right, it's not always safe. For kids, for adults, for anyone, if you've been historically marginalized. So when you know an outing, that is my favorite outing that I get to lead with Out in Nature is, we take a little field trip down to Jasper Pulaski Wildlife Refuge in northwest Indiana.

 

00;42;49;19 - 00;43;27;10

CJ Greco

And during about this time, late November, early December, tens of thousands of sandhill cranes roost at night there. And so you go just before sunset, and these giant 4.5ft tall dinosaurs swoop in from the sky, making their like loud cooing calls. And it is the most majestic experience ever. And we do it every year. And I think, like seeing the joy on people's faces when that's an animal they didn't even know they would ever see in their life, let alone maybe in like a zoo or something.

 

00;43;27;12 - 00;43;49;23

CJ Greco

But 10,000 wild animals, 30,000 of these dinosaurs swooping down, calling their joyous call, the smile on people's faces. You can't beat it. That's what pushes me to keep doing what I do. Teens, adults are like making that joy happen for someone else is what makes some of the joy happen for me.

 

00;43;49;25 - 00;43;52;07

Gerry Ellis, Host

They are amazing. [Imitates sandhill crane calls]

 

00;43;52;09 - 00;43;54;04

CJ Greco

That's it. So good.

 

00;43;54;10 - 00;43;54;18

Gerry Ellis, Host

You know.

 

00;43;54;20 - 00;43;56;19

CJ Greco

It's like it's a really good.

 

00;43;56;21 - 00;44;10;29

Gerry Ellis, Host

I watch a lot of them. They come in around where I live in Portland, Oregon. They flood in, and it's a wintering ground. So we get about, 35, 40,000 stay the winter there. So. Yeah. And then they start dancing. And I'm sure you've seen them.

 

00;44;11;02 - 00;44;12;02

CJ Greco

Like the little leaps.

 

00;44;12;02 - 00;44;31;24

Gerry Ellis, Host

It's so good is. Yeah. It does it just I remember sitting on a platform that overlooks this one wetland and they were in there and they started dancing. And every one on the plat—this platform—you just looked around. It was just smiles and smiles. And I turned to my wife and I said, look around.

 

00;44;31;25 - 00;44;35;14

Gerry Ellis, Host

And it's just, yeah, you can't help but smile when you see that.

 

00;44;35;14 - 00;44;53;23

CJ Greco

It doesn't matter who you are, whether you love nature or like whether you like, know what a tree is or you're a birding expert, you're going to have a good time on that nature field trip. You don't need to know anything. You're just there to have a good time and feel safe in nature because it's not safe.

 

00;44;53;26 - 00;45;08;14

CJ Greco

Like I said, I've been in nature and been unsafe. So having these experiences where like someone who's scared to do it can do it. For free and in a safe and accessible way. It's beautiful.

 

00;45;08;17 - 00;45;13;14

Gerry Ellis, Host

Have you had people walk away and go, I've got to share this with others.

 

00;45;13;14 - 00;45;38;20

CJ Greco

100%, yes. Yeah. I've had conversations like zoom, conversations with people from across the country, across the world who sort of like want to do what we're doing in other places. So conversations with, you know, a bunch of organizations across the country in particular where they're like, we want to make a safe birding space for queer people in this city, or we're this chapter of Feminist Bird Club, and we want to see how we connect.

 

00;45;38;22 - 00;45;55;19

CJ Greco

And just it’s been really exciting to sort of have nature outings be more accessible because, again, for people with disabilities, people of color, LGBTQ community, nature is inherently inaccessible. So how can we make it more so?

 

00;45;55;21 - 00;46;05;25

Gerry Ellis, Host

Which is interesting because we talk about one of the, one of the tenets of environmental education is the healing power of being in nature, the connectedness.

 

00;46;05;27 - 00;46;26;22

CJ Greco

I think that's why I find a lot of joy in city parks in Chicago. Because even if you're not a nature person, you're like, that scares me to go like to a forest or it scares me to like, go see 30,000 birds. But like, I just don't walk in a city park can be really restorative. There's recreation happening.

 

00;46;26;25 - 00;46;30;22

CJ Greco

There's kids playing. There's pigeons. Pigeons are my favorite bird.

 

00;46;30;24 - 00;46;32;19

Gerry Ellis, Host

You know, they are called flying rats.

 

00;46;32;19 - 00;46;37;09

CJ Greco

I'll never call them that. They are rock doves and they are beautiful.

 

00;46;37;11 - 00;46;52;28

Gerry Ellis, Host

But you're right. I mean, you see a child, for example, and you go to a park and they take their—especially an inner city child—and they take their shoes off and run around in grass. They feel grass on their feet. Yeah. And the happiness that exists.

 

00;46;53;00 - 00;47;17;18

CJ Greco

Like wild that is a like a novel experience for some people. Yeah, but like, I get to be the one to help create those experiences. One of the science centers and Lincoln Park Zoo is the Urban Wildlife Institute. And literally it's a whole institute of people dedicated to studying wildlife in urban spaces. So one of my favorite examples of this is the black-crowned night heron.

 

00;47;17;21 - 00;47;43;26

CJ Greco

Black-crowned night herons are found across the globe, it's the most widely found species of heron in the world. And right at Lincoln Park Zoo, there's during like, April to July, peak migration for them. There's about 800 of them that roost over our children's zoo. Wild herons choose to roost over a section of land in Lincoln Park, Chicago.

 

00;47;43;28 - 00;48;03;14

CJ Greco

These herons that are a state endangered species in Illinois choose to roost there because we've created spaces that are acceptable for that, right? Whether it's for people or for wildlife, urban wildlife, people. We can exist in spaces that have been designed for us, designed to be inclusive of us.

 

00;48;03;16 - 00;48;24;13

Gerry Ellis, Host

Yeah. It makes me think of a conversation that we had with another person, Jaime González, here on the podcast and talking about connecting these urban spaces and the wildlife that does exist there and there. And birds are absolutely wonderful example of that, because, I mean, that's why I love birding, because no matter where on this planet, literally including Antarctica, there's birds.

 

00;48;24;18 - 00;48;44;26

CJ Greco

Yeah, I'm a big birder myself. I lead outings for the Urban Birding Festival, for the Indiana Dunes Birding Festival. And part of my job is I get to take teams from the city of Chicago to do birding. If people don't know that Chicago is like a giant migratory bird spot, we have over 400 migratory bird species that visit Chicago every year, even more that stay through the winter.

 

00;48;44;28 - 00;49;07;24

CJ Greco

It is a beautiful place to see wildlife and teams don't know it. You grow up in a place that looks like a concrete box, you’re not going to know that there's more beyond it. So it's exciting to talk to teens, even just about, you know, what wildlife have you experienced. And they'll talk about the rats in their trash, or they'll talk about the pigeons on the street and like, yeah, no, you nailed it.

 

00;49;07;24 - 00;49;36;28

CJ Greco

That's wildlife for sure. But let's take a step into like, just the park. Oh there's squirrels, there's sparrows. Yeah. Now we're getting somewhere. And so we'll look up and we'll see the Cooper's hawk sitting in the tree. Or we'll see the late season kinglets flitting around. Or we’ll see the wood ducks in the lagoon. And it's magical to see the spark in someone's face when they get it.

 

00;49;37;01 - 00;49;39;11

Gerry Ellis, Host

And that creates such a new sense of space.

 

00;49;39;15 - 00;49;41;28

CJ Greco

Yeah, 100% it does.

 

00;49;42;00 - 00;49;54;13

Gerry Ellis, Host

I want to ask you this, and this is maybe more important to ask you than almost any other guests we've asked, is this podcast is called The World We Want. What is the world You want?

 

00;49;54;15 - 00;50;19;03

CJ Greco

It's a great question. The world that I want is a safe one, not just for me, but for literally everybody. Trans or not, queer or not. Just the sense of safety is something that truly cannot be replicated in the way that I want it to be. I want that feeling to be mass produced and shared to everybody because it's reassuring.

 

00;50;19;05 - 00;50;52;08

CJ Greco

It's empowering. It's invigorating to feel safe. There is an opportunity to explore and be curious and dig into things that you didn't even know existed when you're safe. The world that I want is one where everyone feels they have the opportunity to explore that curiosity and take it to the next step. Not just answer their questions, but answer the questions that they ask after they find the answers.

 

00;50;52;10 - 00;51;07;10

CJ Greco

That safety is something that I want for the world, not just, like I said, not just for me, not for my community, not for my city, but for everybody. It's what everyone deserves is to feel safe.

 

00;51;07;13 - 00;51;07;25

Gerry Ellis, Host

Thank you.

 

00;51;08;02 - 00;51;14;25

CJ Greco

Of course, happy to be here.

 

00;51;14;28 - 00;51;40;17

Gerry Ellis, Host

You know, one of the great joys of doing this podcast is sharing people like C.J. With you. Her passion and joy are amazing fuels for living, and it feels like they've turbocharged her life. She's out discovering and celebrating that connection with nature. And today that journey is nurturing the same sense of connection, safety, and passion in others. It's really amazing.

 

00;51;40;19 - 00;52;13;06

Gerry Ellis, Host

But you can find out more about how to foster young learners passions for nature and explore resources for all types of educators by visiting our website at naaee.org/podcast that's naaee.org/podcast. And a special thanks to our entire podcast team Carrie Albright, Judy Braus, Jimena Cuenca, and Stacie Pierpoint. And a special thanks to you for being a part of the world we want.

 

00;52;13;06 - 00;52;38;25

Gerry Ellis, Host

I'm your host, Gerry Ellis. Join us next time to hear more stories of individuals and communities creating a better future through the power of environmental education. You've been listening to The World We Want: The NAAEE Podcast.